Neuvottelija

Tech bros - move fast and break things Ali Omar – Litterointi

Takaisin jaksoon · Lähde: human · Tila: raw. Litteroinnissa voi olla virheitä.

0:00 Alright, welcome to the Negotiator Channel. Quoting my narcissistic self: 'Power is a negotiator's ability to achieve what they want, either indirectly or directly.' Specifically exploring this from the US tech bro perspective, we have here at the table of big players on a Finnish scale, Ali Omar. Welcome. - Thanks.

0:20 A famous angel investor and negotiator guest, and then perhaps at the other table, we have the most indirect influence— meaning the most combined YouTube and podcast visibility ever in Finland in this single space. Leevi Leivo, founder of Puheenaihe. - Thanks for the invite, here in the broke corner, and Isak Rautio, founder of Futucast.

0:45 Thank you very much, thanks for the invite. Always nice to wake up early to talk about America.

0:51 Great. Let's do a quick round. So, this refers to the concept of Trump's media control cluster, and then maybe it originally stems from Peter Thiel, who even during Trump's first term, as perhaps the most successful US angel investor, started supporting Trump.

1:14 He took a beating, but then Elon Musk joined in the final stretches of this second campaign to support, and the rest of the tech bros were seen there at the coronation—Trump's inauguration ceremony. Let's start thinking how we ended up here. - Yeah, well, it's certainly been widely discussed that now many of these big money men, these multi-billionaires,

1:41 have essentially switched to Trump's side. Well, at least one question I've been left wondering about, and haven't heard an answer to yet, is that—and it would be interesting for someone to ask—what was it about the previous Republicans, for example, that made it so they couldn't vote for them? One perspective is that the Democrats have gone too far into 'woke' territory, and this liberalism

2:08 went overboard, so now the billionaire camp in Silicon Valley is moving behind the Republicans. But that's been discussed a lot. I think one interesting question that hasn't been discussed is what was it about previous Republicans that made it impossible to vote for them?

2:24 Why were they Democrats before? To bring up a perspective I haven't really heard an answer to yet... - What? What exactly is the question? Why Republicans previously couldn't exactly... Who? - No, I mean now, specifically these big money men, Musk and others, are becoming Republican voters, so why not before? I think this is interesting to consider again; clearly in the previous ones, like Trump 2016, what was it about that that didn't yet... So it's interesting. Marc Andreessen,

2:52 who is another figure people talk about as being in the inner circle, uses a term called 'preference cascade.' Have you heard it? How would you say that in Finnish? A 'preference cascade.' Okay.

3:04 Now I'm just going to anglicize that, you'll all understand and so basically people have different ones for different groups, meaning political groups have different desires, and at some point these cascades happen where they might merge, and like Trump, for example, in this situation might notice at some point that, okay, wait a minute, this Bannon-esque traditionalist core of mine doesn't

3:30 necessarily vibe with this Musk-style new tech-right completely at heart, but we need this coalition to win.

3:39 And yes, in the US, Finland, Europe, the world, there's this kind of thing happening... I mean, for ordinary people, ordinary men, this thing is happening, a Zuckerberg-esque discovery of manhood, this kind of right-wing concept of manliness, in a way, right? You know, starting grappling, starting to hit the gym, wearing younger clothes, talking a bit about how this HR culture has eaten away at masculinity and all that.

4:08 Yeah, like we all love politically incorrect humor, so this culture has somehow, gradually, perhaps approached that more traditionalist Bannon-esque right, at least in the form of a political coalition. Of course, there's probably some kind of... these aren't in the same camp, which we noticed at Christmas with the H-1B visa discussion; there are deep disagreements within these coalitions

4:36 that will probably be seen over the next year. But I read this as an answer to the question: it's become more okay to start vibing with these new right-wing ideas. Yeah, and then what we saw at the inauguration, wasn't it like kissing the king's ring?

4:53 Those billionaires weren't there necessarily because they agree, but because it's in their interest to agree, and even if they weren't in the public eye in previous presidential elections, then at the inauguration, they have previously kissed another king's ring, specifically.

5:12 Do you remember Zuckerberg in 2016? After Trump was first elected, he came out with a big media campaign and said, 'Sorry, sorry, I apologize for not realizing how big an impact Facebook has and how big an impact fake news on our platform has on these elections.' It was debated; I don't know how proactive it was even then, but he nevertheless came forward with these statements. Now, eight years later, a totally different

5:38 tune. Now he went on Rogan, which is pretty funny, by the way. Rogan has become this kind of rite for billionaires, where if you manage to talk to Rogan for three hours about hunting, you emerge as this ordinary man of the people, an accepted person. The first step was that MMA thing.

5:55 it was on Lex Fridman this week that, like, quite interestingly, that Lex Fridman is then like a lighter version, so a bit more tech-bro friendly, but I mean, this YouTube power is also, I would say to Leevi's question, that in a way this media landscape shifted completely, so the classic cliché that is true is that this traditional media was just completely in the leftist-Democrat camp and then in a way this rise of YouTube and podcasts broke that power

6:24 and after that, for example, Trump's media campaign was like in the hands of us people. Yeah, and I do notice it works. Personally, even though I've vibed so much more with Musk's stuff since he has been openly in these podcasts and of course on X, compared to say when Bill Gates is much more of a stranger to me, I can't really say anything about his personality, so I don't really end up commenting on his projects or following them, and you don't really get

6:54 that kind of relationship. I do notice that these figures who do long- format podcasts, I notice myself that it affects the image I have of them, as in it's more positive for those who go on them. So you mean at the same time that now this media upheaval affects people and through that also politics and ideas and thinking. Yeah, it definitely has an effect; it would be really stupid in my opinion to say it wouldn't have any impact, for sure it affects

7:23 whoever presents themselves in this relatively authentic format and specifically the gap, or at least an apparent gap, between that elite, exactly, and the ordinary person, as if it seemingly shrinks a lot, so at least many people get the feeling that, wait, someone like Elon Musk is quite close to us. Exactly, and it's that, I mean Trump's concept of fake news, fake media is kind of true, not maybe in a fact-checking sense, because of course Trump

7:52 lied, though otherwise he lies less now, which shows that Trump is maybe a tactical liar, but in a way, it's unauthentic media; people go there to speak talking points, and when the talking points run out between the interviewer and interviewee, then the conversation doesn't continue. In this authentic media that we represent, there are no questions that cannot be asked, and also the scoping of the agenda and the framing of what is discussed and

8:20 how it's discussed and with whom it's discussed. Yeah, I agree with that, this media somehow exposes a person to a completely different visibility in relation to the audience, so you can't help but reveal something that wouldn't be revealed in only a 10-minute segment. And it's like, and if we return to Zuckerberg for a moment, it's very human to relate to the fact that—no man, you know, going to the gym and MMA is cool, or it's cool, it's

8:47 fun to laugh at politically incorrect humor. All of this is stuff that normal people like. And it's been a bit forbidden perhaps, and it's very human that Zuckerberg as a person, kind of like all of us, feels these same emotions and goes on a pod to talk with this scene's biggest figure about it, but there's also—I don't know if that authenticity hides something that a regular

9:12 person can't relate to, because it's also just as human and authentic if you're Zuckerberg, being the CEO of a major tech firm and seeing that your own business and actually your own life might be in a major transition now after this new presidential election.

9:35 Now I'm going there to communicate this message about me and us that helps me get by and not end up in jail, like Trump threatened Zuckerberg, so like this too is very human and authentic, but this is the kind of thing that isn't necessarily brought out authentically. That's one anecdote, that it was previously suspected that Mark Zuckerberg might have wanted a presidential campaign someday in the future. He toured

10:02 America and filmed it extensively. Then secondly, well, he has to be very apologetic after all these scandals like the Meta platform's hate speech and, well, these security issues and political influence. And he had to be quite a humble boy so that it wouldn't be broken up or start being regulated. He has, in a way, from this kind of omnipotence, well,

10:30 suddenly changed to being quite sympathetic. And now I see that now he—well, 'MAGA Mark'—he has just evolved. This is in a certain way also this acting out, like, okay, now we adapt to this situation, and suddenly these fact-checks and so on stop. This like extreme power—returning to this theme—if power now is money, which is concentrated power in itself, well, the best

10:59 example is probably Elon Musk buying Twitter, making it X, and in a way, through his interpreted sympathies, like, freed it and removed that its biggest produced wave of hate, just with money. And then, it's that influence, meaning like this media visibility, and then it's just direct power—meaning if the world's

11:23 most powerful nuclear-weapon military complex, America, is now, led by your friend, who then uses very direct power, like, if Colombia doesn't take in illegal immigrants, then a day later, it's like, let's put on 25 percent and then 50 percent in tariffs, and when you combine that triangle, what

11:52 other options do we other nations of the world have than to either be in that US camp or then be quiet as hell hunched over; I could answer that, if it was a question, well, there's no other choice if we look at realpolitik, I've been following John Mearsheimer's like realpolitik and his, his research and speeches, so the situation is indeed that great powers always decide for the smaller ones

12:18 and, and, and inevitably we're then, of course, on one side or the other only a few states are able to be completely neutral, they have maybe some geographic advantage, say Switzerland, and if you look at Austria even that is a bit towards the east, but still somehow locked in, but well, it is like that, that we're on someone's side Sub says that our relationship with America will become more instrumental, probably

12:46 true, yeah, out of 40, 40 icebreakers, maybe if we build a significant part of them, transferring technology to America, maybe we'll get a part, so Ville Rydman is now telling this piece of good news, but I mean real real money is coming if we understand how to, for example, not speak much on behalf of Denmark regarding Greenland, I could ask a question related to tech Bros power, pro-oligarchy, or whatever Tuomas Peltomäki's new term is, is

13:12 America an oligarchy in your opinion, or is it turning into one, I haven't like landed on any answer regarding this, the Economist had a really good story, Biden used the term, the same term that Eisenhower used once, was it in the 30s or mil industrial comp, Biden says Tech Industrial Complex, we need to be careful of this new emerging Tech Industrial Complex, which is now, which somehow reflects, I mean this military Industrial Complex thing is still a pretty big meme in the US, although

13:42 now personally, I don't really know anymore how much American defense technologies or defense firms affect their foreign policy or war policy, but I don't know about these new tech firms, I mean they are insanely rich, they have the resources to just fund they are what Musk and Bezos and Zuckerberg are, like a tenth of the stock market or something, but then

14:08 again in this Economist column it was well mentioned that all these top five, their combined Gross Value Added to the American economy is really small, like 3%, maybe 2%, it's a really, really huge economy, so is America the kind of economy where this tech-based US could emerge as significant, I mean more broadly, but as an answer to the question oligarchy in Greek just means like the rule of the few, a bit

14:35 more democratic form, we have the sole rule, king, autocrat, dictator, then oligarchy, meaning a small group chooses, and then democracy, and democracy has never worked directly, it requires representative democracy, where you always have a small clique in that democracy too, which makes the decisions, for example in parliament, and in the government, but America is not a kleptocracy. So, for example, I had Martti J. Kari as a guest, and he said that Russia is, in addition to an oligarchy,

15:05 a kleptocracy, meaning you're chosen from that oligarchy with direct bribes to that, go ahead—no, sorry, I thought you pointed to Levi, Levi, you if you were first, well, maybe it could be noted as an observation that now these big tech companies, it's not just the United States they affect, as they've spread or they don't respect national borders that way, and

15:30 what I'd say about what we've just seen with Elon Musk and others, which I see as a broader phenomenon and specifically how power operates is that in this current internet environment, with openness one can gain a lot more power, and if you openly and effectively know how to use social media, it can be this kind of instrument of power that can also act as a bridge through which you channel

15:56 economic power into political power, and it's always been the case that economic power has sought to influence politics, but on the other hand we would probably ideally want it to be as minimal as possible, but what I think is happening is that it's happening surprisingly openly and really even ruthlessly, and it seems to be quite okay with people, that now they don't really try to hide it much behind the scenes anymore, but it's done very openly, and that openness actually brings

16:25 it also more support and legitimacy; it's even a kind of force. Yeah, by the way, a really good point how technology changes in general what power can be nowadays; in that Economist column, I think it was stated quite validly that if you compare to someone like Rockefeller, if you compare Musk or someone, Rockefeller, who was that kind of oil tycoon, well Rockefeller still had like a much stronger grip on American society, he could squeeze it because

16:53 he controlled such a critical raw material for that society, oil, you needed oil, but do we need Amazon, like that online store?

17:04 Do we need Facebook, this social media? But on the other hand, let me just quickly finish this point, I just thought of a kind of critical point that technology still changes the ways in which you can generally have an influence on the world Valtteri Vuorisalo from Tampere University has a good example of this; this is a very small, banal example, but it kind of tells you something about like what kind of new ways you can have to exercise power in the world; take some small playground in Vantaa, which is

17:34 inside the borders of the sovereign state of Finland, managed by the City of Vantaa and everyone kind of recognizes these memes, everyone understands that this is like now, okay, this is Finland's sovereign and Vantaa-managed territory, then comes an app like Pokémon Go and suddenly you might see that here in Vantaa's playgrounds there are just heaps of random people just like hanging around and

18:02 they are only there because some foreign company has coded that exactly in this spot there is some random pixel Pokémon that needs to be caught, so suddenly in people's minds it's no longer just a kindergarten managed by Vantaa but it's a place where you find some Pokémon and this is de facto exercise of power in a way, yeah, like a digital twin in a sense a certain kind of Matrix world, well, Plato's Allegory of the Cave is

18:30 fascinating, I mean Zuckerberg's vision was a failure, that it would happen through VR glasses, on which he wasted quite a bit of that billion-dollar fortune to pursue this, people don't want virtual reality, at least not yet but they want augmented reality and we could bring in maybe this AI too, on top of these levels of information I wanted to point out that yes, it's clear that we are moving

18:58 into virtual reality and augmented reality but the technology isn't there yet where it would be so consumer-friendly but I wanted to say to that earlier point that there are always influential people in business or influential people anywhere, so they are somehow committed to that politics and the state also uses them as tools, if we think about technology, then, well, what technology is in Amazon, it's commercial power, like selling

19:27 American products and then getting a certain added value from it for the United States, then if we look and also the servers, Amazon owns this internet, exactly so, exactly so, then look at Meta, it has a certain kind of monopoly on information distribution We have it in WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, then look at TikTok, why is TikTok being bought in the US now, so that it can be used, well, so it can be ensured

19:55 that it's not under anyone else's control and, well, then what favors are being done for the politicians, so I'm not hinting at corruption, but just favors like where investments are made in which area the investment goes, whether it's invested in the US or overseas or in which state, this is after all this kind of interactive game where the aim is to advance the interests of the whole state, and there are different alliances, so I don't

20:24 want to over-psychologize whether this is a right-wing or left-wing situation, but that now the people have given a mandate for a second time to Trump to change things, from the Midwest and evangelical Christians, saying wait a minute, something has to change, and then as a scapegoat taken those illegals coming into the country who, by the way, are for both well, just as a curiosity, beneficial to both parties

20:53 for some, the Democrats get voters and then the Republicans get cheap labor there in the southern states. Yeah, this then is the, or Iisak refers to this visa dispute, so it's a sort of wrinkle in the romance, I mean, between Elon Musk and that Trump, the relationship is a bit stronger than people think, so in a way, this is now the first dispute between this Bannon-ite

21:21 all foreigners out of America and the Tech bros' 'but we want those geniuses in our companies doing work for cheaper' between them, and I'd strongly bet that this is where this Bannon-ite camp gets tired of Musk, and they've already moved him to that White House sort of outbuilding, this DOGE department. Yeah, so this traditionalist nationalist core is very strong in the Trump camp

21:51 for sure, and I think one of the basic criticisms of American society, probably of modern times in general, is how roots have what it's become, how all these traditional, when I say institutions, I'm not talking about World Health, I'm talking about the nuclear family, all these things have lost their meaning in people's daily lives at least compared to earlier times, strictly speaking, in light of statistics

22:17 people don't think of or value these the same way as before, say 20 years ago, but the importance of money has risen. I'm quoting Patrick Deneen, who wrote a good book, Regime Change, a really good book about what's happening right now, so...

22:33 uh, and the importance of money, how money has replaced—if you have, like, the means... well, if you have money in American society today, you basically have the means to replace or live with the freedom you have if you distance yourself from all these traditional institutions like family or religion or such, so you won't be left stranded, but

23:00 so, 'f*** you money' basically. Yeah, but that's an illusion that American society is competitive and there they dare to show money as well, but that's an illusion in the sense that money doesn't bring any internal, like internal fulfillment; we're still humans who need security and the approval of others, and money only gives that to a certain

23:27 extent, but then you need family and friends and people to love and give love to and receive love from. Yeah, and then we could maybe move on to this misery of Europe, because we don't have money, and in Finland especially we don't have money, even though we have this strange illusion We'd have money—I mean, in Finland there are 8,500 people who, through unlisted shares, are at least like single-millionaires in euros, meaning over one million euros. This is an incredibly small number; only 3% of Finns own

23:55 unlisted shares. Because of this inheritance tax, they're being shut down all the time; the outlook for our job-creating companies looks terrible.

24:03 Combined with this, like, YEL reform, our ownership is disappearing and we really don't have anything like even close to the American billionaire crowd, and in a way we don't realize that we want—we actually would need them, we would need a few people like that now to be in our corner defending our, well, employment, and Europe in general has somehow decided to destroy all ownership in Europe. We've become over-bureaucratized; we have, in a way,

24:31 from the EU—actually, as this was being filmed yesterday, a compass came out where it was finally decided that we'd do a bit like what they're doing Biden-style, reducing the administration a bit, but we are miles away from this Trump administration that's going to remove regulations and enrich the people, like, we are at a massive disadvantage. Well, I have to mention there that one

24:55 thing that belongs to that Tech Bro thing is that we idolize, like, hyper- competitive, maybe hyper-masculine people, arrogant people who disrupt and maybe break rules and pursue these kind of big projects, billion-dollar valuations and so on—meaning, in a way, in American culture it's accepted that there's a certain group that's completely

25:23 unruly, that breaks rules... yeah, yeah, and if you look at Finnish society, which is very consensus-seeking, we maybe don't have the same kind of space for that, but this is like a division of labor—that some some division of labor in society, some are—some are given money and told to go break and go burn and drive full speed into a wall, crash and burn, and—as you mentioned—it's still a pretty small

25:52 percentage though of what, what, what circulates in the GDP, like, in a way. I mean, I feel like challenging that a bit—when you say there's no room to be a masculine achiever or that it's hard to own in Europe... so, how—more like—my—this isn't a critique but an observation that this is just a division of labor in the state.

26:15 I'm not saying it's like somehow terribly forbidden in Finland, but we don't have that culture, or maybe the resources—we don't have the money, people don't understand it, but like, it doesn't help much if we have some small achiever and then the Eye of Sauron of this power complex comes to, say, Denmark and says, 'Well, how about Greenland with 58,000 people—let's give everyone like two million.' it doesn't cost us anything to make them a state What are you Danes going to do oh something like grumble Well uh how about uh

26:44 You guys have that like quite successful pharma company so how about your like diabetes drugs no longer selling rich as What Denmark can fare better than Denmark is already doing V so you've been to Denmark but uh do you know I mean Denmark Getting to Denmark is really like a meme but uh if even Denmark can be brought to its knees before this like complex then a small country but he only needs to fare well for four years

27:09 uh and and remember if you look at diplomacy four years is like a quite short short time so and then maybe I'd come to this that not like Trump himself doesn't have any very consistent policy so it's this kind of total messing around but of course those behind him like like the influential like like in a way the party elite so of course there are then goals and those those are being used S I doubt that the Maga core this Bannonite core doesn't identify with what you just said They don't necessarily

27:38 feel these billionaires as much I mean this Bannonite core is really techno-pessimistic it favors exactly this like breaking big tech's monopoly position in general talks a lot about how modern times have somehow destroyed man somehow like it goes really like into that philosophy that man was more human before as simpler yeah exactly like closer to nature closer somehow

28:05 like natural flow Whatever kind of metaphors are being used exactly like that and uh this was also seen actually one extreme example where this appeared was this United Healthcare CEO's murder Luigi Mangione and it showed how really the Left united suddenly completely everyone was of the opinion that somehow or at least on the internet it seemed that very many sympathized with it together could be Yeah it's like in a way the rich elite

28:34 hatred hatred uh is is like an extremely strong force and you can't get away from it but in itself like if you look at even this Tea Party movement when there was this Speaker Mike Johnson so uh previously there was that group of about twenty people like the Tea Party group who like always voted against like what the Republican bloc did so in this case they were now steamrolled like into one person So in my opinion it shows that the Tea Party Bannonite movement

29:01 is like quite on its knees before this uh tech industry Pro uh Trump complex but in that Trump is so charismatic and and and like like of him He is like in a certain sense like a savior whether it's then for like the working class or then for Evangeli- uh Lutheran Evangeli- Christians then so uh that's where it's projected then the the person that that that like that one should

29:30 maybe look to some extent at what policy the US is pursuing versus what Trump is doing, and in this context, if we look at it, then these billionaires' interests to support the US as the world's dominant nation economically, militarily, and culturally—if we think about these platforms, how much they also export American culture. And if you look at

29:59 the resilience here, when describing this there was a small moment of joy for the Western leftist media when, have you seen the meme with the US tech bros and then the Chinese dragon, and it has DeepSeek and Alibaba, and then there's Europe which has this cork in its nose, basically that Europe specializes in regulation while everyone else is doing things without

30:25 this kind of mess, but there was a small moment when this Chinese cluster sort of showed its strength, that they supposedly with just millions coded both this DeepSeek AI and Alibaba's language model without the hundreds of billions of Nvidia and the Tech Bro complex. The US had just announced this 500-million AI program, and then basically came a billion, so there was this brief moment: 'Now NV's value

30:53 dropped a bit, and now it's breaking over there, the Yanks won't get what they want with money and power.' It recovered immediately, and now basically, we...

31:03 are, brothers, we've lost this game already. So now we have to understand that with this regulation, impoverishment, big government, and public spending, there's no way to win this game. Yesterday the European Commission came out with a 'compass,' meaning now we'll start regulating, yeah.

31:22 Wait, yesterday I saved the link, I'd throw it in there, because yeah, those are the memes, but the cork thing is made by the EU, but these AIs, companies should be making them, or I think often even here we focus too much on what taxation does or what the EU or the state does, but damn it, it's people and companies who make them. And I don't really see that here—yes, there might

31:50 be some hindering regulation and it would be good to dismantle it, but it's up to us, who are entrepreneurs and individuals, to actually build this Europe. That's a good mindset, such a great mindset already. I like it. We forget that the US has those 360 million people and it's one single market area where everyone speaks the same language, and laws—roughly commercial laws are the same, goods move, and people move, and ideas move, and then Europe has roughly the same

32:18 number of people, but we have so many nations here, language barriers, and cultural barriers, and legislation, so in a way, maybe the comparison is It's a bit unfair, but I agree with Leevi that people are and companies and, and, and, uh, maybe the thing here is that we're missing certain certain, uh, risk-taking. Just ChatGPT, which is still, uh, an American service. On the way here, I was listening

32:44 to it, and, and, and, uh, there's 570 billion in AI development in the world, half of which goes—sorry, 57% goes to the United States, and of that half then goes to Silicon Valley. Those are like massive amounts. What's concentrated there is capital, with which risks are taken, and now those Tech Bro guys are taking those risks. We don't have capital. I mean, today I'm going to Software Finland's, uh, this kind of funding evening, like as the final speaker, about the IPO market, and my message

33:12 is that you need a market cap of 15 million euros, you need to seek at least, at least a five-million-euro capital investment in that company, and then you need growth and profitability. And it's so typical, companies like these aren't found around here, and that five million isn't found. I mean, like, they're playing on a completely different field. They're playing on a field a thousand times larger. Their whole, like, Venture Capital complex is, like, uh, bigger than all our companies combined. So, this is

33:39 just unbelievable, how we still think with this kind of leftist hegemony that this game is somehow won when we do everything the way we can and try to, like, tax all wealth away and destroy everything with regulation—all the startups, meaning this actually brings us to the point that—is it the case that if we think about what what money there is and what, like, what GDP is—it's like economic activity—so is it the case that we're here

34:06 for some reason or another, be it regulation or taxation? Well, it's related to regulation, sure, partly. And is it the culture that we don't work here? We're just, like, pretending to work, that we are hardworking. We have that ethos. I mean, working hours in the US are much higher on average than in Europe. But if I'm now, like, this defender of Europe, I could argue that in Europe, then again, the well-being of the average person is at least as high as

34:35 in the United States. And that point that, yeah, in the US they're developing a significant part, or in China, of these new technology tools, for example—but you have to remember that we Europeans also get to benefit from them at a very low cost, and it also trickles down to our citizens' well-being because we get those services here for use too. And what maybe was there, what you, Sami, said, that when there's no capital and nothing is developed, what that creates is exactly

35:02 coming back to power—meaning because these Americans then own these, they ultimately have the power, which means we get some kind of dependency on the US, but if we're on good terms, we get that well-being, in a way, it comes here too. Exactly, exactly. This is quite true. Then, maybe, as I just mentioned Thiel, well, he has like 'Zero to One', but then he has these very intense speeches where he says that a bad business is one that has to

35:31 compete, and the goal of any good business is to get a monopoly of its whole target market. And so, this American Venture Capital complex is such that they have the ability to throw an endless amount of billions into these 5% bets, like, 'Will this become the monopoly of this vertical?' And then, you know, they can throw them out there, and 20 of them might fail, but one rises to become like a decacorn then.

35:59 Very briefly, this highlights—I want to point out that, in a way, breaking the old and finding these 'new frontiers' and then again, the conflict between well-being and humanity, which arises here.

36:19 And now in this 'Tech Bro' culture, they really don't care about well-being; instead, they let young men go into burnout and perhaps become dependent on medications and stimulants just so they can perform this work. But on the other hand, there's humanity. But we do have to come up with something regarding how we manage. Relatively speaking, I agree with Leevi that some benefit comes from there, and this is like

36:46 innovation, and the benefit spreads everywhere. I was just thinking on my way here that AI and all that stuff, we're going to get to use it and then utilize it and get our own slice of it as companies create value for end users or corporate clients. But we really need to come up with something of our own. We can't just let ourselves become relatively poorer if every country thinks this way: 'Hey, we need to do something, work, learn,'

37:15 and build something, whether it's abstract things like ideas, or services, or products, but building something. If we let this slide, then then we'll become relatively poorer, and we won't have that well-being that other countries have. I'm not saying all technology brings benefits and well-being, but that relative advantage disappears.

37:40 And if we look at Finland, since the war it has risen from a very poor country to a prosperous one. It's a miracle. What's next? That's the question. So, I mean, more than bottle caps. I agree that—I mean, there's something there.

37:57 it's really intoxicating to just jump into that startup Silicon Valley scene where you can feel like you're in a sort of semi- above-it-all kind of outpost where nothing is like sacred, but everything is like problems that can be solved through optimization, it's really empowering and then Nietzsche has this master-slave morality idea that if the masters

38:26 in society, this sort of mentally superior class, then they don't have a concept like evil, yeah, Evil, exactly but that it's just good and bad, you have your own morals, the master defines his own morality, and then there are good things that lead to your goal, and bad things that don't lead to it, then for slaves the

38:50 difference for a slave in his view is that a slave doesn't, a slave doesn't avoid doing bad things, Evil things, because they're a good person, but because they don't dare to they can't do it, like the slave mentality is such that we create moral boundaries for each other, kind of like artificial boundaries, this is Evil for example, and this is, and it's really empowering surely to be this kind of person who feels that me and my environment, we can define these

39:18 our own rules, kind of like in Silicon Valley they've been given a mandate to do so because the economic benefits are huge, I just wanted to say to that point that even though this gives power and even though you can disrupt, even though this is how, like, the world's future is actually being created, the whole planet's future, technology will be what likely determines who has power in the future, yet in the elections in the US this time as well, the economy was one of the biggest issues and

39:44 specifically the average person's economy, the fact that eggs cost too much in the store, that, that is, in a certain sense, a mistake, that last one, I'll grab onto that last sentence because there's a belief there that democracy then works and now everyone makes an enlightened sort of decision about who to vote for, or, or is it that after all, like, society and communication and, and, and, and the elite, like, influence the people, I'm not referring to any conspiracy now, but that, that, that, that, are the people now

40:14 really making decisions independently, and that was like one thing, but to that still, as a segue, what you, what you said there was good, that Nietzsche thing that comparison, so now if we look at those, the elite who have money übermensch, yeah, and then we look at these, these young people who want to build unicorns, so, so, so, well that Nietzschean master's

40:43 thinking is only possible when a person has everything going well they have no threats, they have enough money, they have protection, security, like status, and they're doing well, they can think in very, like, complex ways, thoughts like, is this right or wrong, no need to react emotionally, then we have the average person who has a lot of burden and not necessarily a lot of education, so he he thinks with emotion, he shoots from the hip Is this good or bad? Is this like 'woke' good or bad or what is this, what is

41:10 this? Is it like this? And now, now here is this certain kind of dependency or or relationship with these, like, billionaires and the elite who have money, and then these young men who have nothing to lose because they only have things to gain. Then they can override all the, like, ethical mor- and values and just look to think in a new way, and there like, a certain kind of pressure creates, like, these kinds of thoughts, while here, on the other hand, freedom and well-being create that possibility to think more broadly. Let's take

41:38 freedom of speech. We have, like, Henna Virkkunen with a very dangerous portfolio.

41:42 I mean, I'm actually not very happy that we got it. At first, I thought it was great because it's so strong, but if that Eye of Sauron finds Henna Virkkunen and connects it to Finland, then this won't, like, end well for Finland, because then it's, like, connecting that Commissioner's post to Finland and we end up in this, like, Denmark situation now, like. I mean, this Compass program gave me hope that maybe even in that freedom of speech, they'll start from the craziness, starting to, like, soften that line, but the first

42:08 like, reactions to this, like, Tech bros' initial take were that now we just regulate them out of here, out of Europe. They don't want these, as Alin mentioned, those angry young men, they just shouldn't hear, like, Musk's like, ranting, for example in Britain or Germany. Why do we have to talk about Europe, can't we just... um, because we don't want that Sauron's eye in Finland from there in America. Yeah, but anyway, I mean,

42:36 freedom of speech. Let's take it at the American level, so, I mean, I felt, to be honest, relief now that Trump won, that now I can be, like, more direct, freer, like safe. Well, safe in the sense that, in a way, nobody will start canceling me, and in America it's, like, surely that feeling is, like, very widespread. I mean, do you feel that it really affected your freedom of speech and

43:00 Trump won? Yeah. How? Well, for example, saying that in Trump's administration there will be... if we already lost, like, the game to, like, Joe Biden, who is like, a 15% smaller taxing complex, then we are going to lose so badly against America, and this is what you can't say in Finland, you just have to say that bad Trump, bad Trump, there he is, like, harassing women and is corrupt and otherwise lies all the time. You weren't allowed to... I mean, what

43:28 have you wanted to say before that you couldn't say, that you could say now? Well, for example, this, that this kind of, like, American model is completely superior compared, like, to Europe, and it's not, like, in Finland's interest to just go along with that, like, Democrat. I think many people... quite many people say... well, now everyone says the same thing, not necessarily everyone, I'll dig up your episodes from there, like, there

43:55 from the end of last year and from there to me, when... I won't start gaslighting you. I understand what you're talking about. I mean, we talked a little about it at the start too, now it's easy to say because we have freedom, but previously we had like this cancel culture and a certain kind of like mess. And now when you see it, I mean it's even a bit grand to watch how, along with DEI, ESG will like decrease and in a way because, like, in Europe, that kind of ESG

44:23 regulation's like, well, plastic cap country, so in a way that power will come into its own Hey, there are two interesting phenomena here. One is that our, like, playing field of ideas has now like expanded from, like, Finland and like say, Helsinki, to suddenly like global and leaning towards the west.

44:42 That's like one thing and and and then another thing is that it is like typical that these ideals, these single values, are then optimized then like to the maximum, if we think that just now something like equality was optimized and all the Woke and DEI came and it's taken to an absolute absolute level, and then you're not allowed to think otherwise anymore. Now we're then at the other extreme, like behind freedom of speech, everything can be said, except Henna Virkkunen blocks it. Yeah, but... but if we look at the United States, now

45:10 one single value is being optimized and that, for me personally, is like intellectually, like, not very capable that we can't understand that many kinds of values can be true at the same time, like, and then the fact that, well, like, a mature person rarely optimizes a value to the maximum.

45:31 DEI and the golden age of woke's rise, by the way, was Trump's first term 16-20, that's when these rose quite explosively. Yeah, and I mean in the EU there's been this framework decision on hate speech in 2008, before any woke and this kind of stuff, which I think didn't cause anything major in Finland because we already had honor—now I might be saying something wrong, but at least I know that the framework decision came in 2008 already, I mean when the law-based

45:56 well, defamation and the legal rights have of course always been well, sought in courts, but there's kind of this like fake camp where you get some Facebook fact-checks or some fact bars where there's like some one guy looking a bit at whether this is now a fact. There, please, go ahead. I can... Here are two different things. Which one are we talking about now? Are we talking about what some

46:22 social media platform CEO decides regarding what their own internal policy is on what is allowed, or are we talking more about how, like, a certain area's authorities or I mean lawmakers see how much these platforms should be controlled. I think these are two different things. In my opinion, the law is what the law says, and those platforms are then... well, the people communicating there are themselves responsible for their messages. I mean, if you think about the EU,

46:50 I mean, and regarding what's been discussed, I think specifically, hell no, of course we shouldn't start practicing any kind of pre-censorship against any platforms, but at the same time, of course I know that those X's, Facebooks, Instagrams and others, it's not neutral at all what gets promoted, and what the algorithms push, of course it has a huge amount of power, but still I don't believe in what there have been some echoes of lately,

47:19 Henna Virkkunen and basically her camp, who after all decide on these things, in their talk, it's been as if we need some kind of big policy regarding what you're allowed to say there or what not, so hell no to that. Hey, on that, I have to say, having a general practitioner's education, just there was an article where a doctor—yeah, on paper, though nowadays it's more but as a joke, a specialist in money medicine,

47:48 Ali has founded a very successful, well, care service company or medical center—how did I forget— social and healthcare service... we found our episode 46 or something where it was explained. But what I was saying was, I was reflecting on it and I sent a message to a professor

48:12 when a person became depressed after being bullied, and I started thinking about how, imagine that without any physical or chemical contact, just through the air like this, you can cause a disturbance in another's brain function, which results in their ability to function changing and life changing permanently—meaning bullying, so completely non-physical,

48:40 there's no wire, no chemistry involved, but it starts affecting. So now if we look at platforms and how they affect our children, how they affect adults, how they affect thoughts, it's completely indisputable that we're also dealing with a concept that contains dangers, and now we come to what is freedom of speech and what is safety. So we have two different values that we both need. And now the state authorities and the EU and

49:08 of course the United States as well have to think about what it means, what's allowed there, what isn't, and somehow my intuition says a couple of things, one is that I have an intuition that a turning point has happened in generations, among mothers who are starting to limit their children's phone use, that's one, and then two, recognizing that it has downsides and something must be done collectively about it, simply because parents find it really difficult to control their children's usage,

49:38 what is done there, when it's done, and how much is done. I think this feeling is now, if we return to the US for a moment, this is a unifying factor between the left and right, I mean for many, there's a feeling that we need to do something about the power of these tech giants and We're sort of like "Influ-Bros" and we've made this conversation about Jonathan Haidt's...

49:59 ...well, his book with Mikko Alasaarela, a discussion about this anxious...

50:02 ...generation, which by the way was number one and two in Finland on Apple's...

50:06 ...podcasts. So we've done our part here with this, you know, this...

50:11 ...indirect power. I actually said in that episode—I'm pausing the middle of the episode—...

50:14 ...well, I said there, I brought up a good thought—by the way, I asked that...

50:20 ...same question to Ivan Puopolo in our episode, like, are words...

50:24 ...violence if they have a physiological impact, because...

50:27 ...in a way, not in the same way as actual violence, but that's a good point.

50:31 "Screw you, you're not even an MBA"—was that violence? No, that wasn't...

50:37 ...violence, or rather, it was maybe a small jab, it didn't...

50:42 ...hurt. I mentioned in our episode with Mikko Alasaarela this...

50:47 ...thing called Section 230. Do you remember it from 1996 in America?

50:53 The Communications Decency Act. It can be considered a sort of constitution for the internet...

50:58 ...in a way. Have you heard of it? I remember. Yeah, this is... and this is very...

51:02 ...important, and it has probably defined a large part of how...

51:06 ...the internet has developed. And the principle is quite simple. That legal package was...

51:10 ...that phone thing, where some phone—no, it relates to the fact that if you are...

51:14 ...or rather, it's taking shape—my language might be a bit clumsy, but the...

51:19 ...idea is that if I have, for example, a platform on the internet—I own it, I'm say Mark...

51:23 ...Zuckerberg, I have Facebook, and then someone writes—some third party...

51:27 ...writes something on Facebook that isn't allowed, for which...

51:30 ...one could sue, then in America, you can't sue the...

51:36 ...party that provides the means, the one who has the platform. They are, so to speak...

51:43 ...non-liable. I don't know what that is in Finnish. And this same principle is...

51:48 ...in use in the EU thanks to this e-Commerce Directive...

51:54 ...but this DSA, which has come out in recent years, the Digital Services Act, yeah...

52:02 ...it has slightly changed this, as I said in that episode.

52:07 Nowadays in Europe, a platform can be liable if they are aware that...

52:15 ...there is something on their platform that violates their own rules or is illegal, and...

52:21 ...this is like a change in regime in how the authorities see...

52:25 ...the internet. And as a segue from that, this actually shifts...

52:29 ...the responsibility for oversight from the state to...

52:34 ...companies. And wait a minute, if they handle the monitoring of communication...

52:41 ...and its accuracy, aren't they then in a certain way like...

52:45 ...a state organization or body? I actually had an idea come to mind. What...

52:50 ...do you think about this? How social media could potentially be regulated? Would it be...

52:55 ...in the same way as it is for—I think it's like, if you sell...

53:00 ...food products, you have to know what they contain. So would it be an impossible...

53:05 ...thought if it was like, if you provide an internet platform, then it...

53:09 it should be open source like open, the algorithm, this would destroy their business model a lot, but then at least the consumer in principle could make all kinds of algorithms favoring any kind of message you could make services, you should know, you could choose what to use, yeah and it's good, I mean Musk shared it like a year ago, so community notes is a good reform, so I mean the community can, based on certain principles,

53:38 do fact-checking and the same is coming to Facebook too, but that Musk algorithm, for example, I immediately started liking my own posts and writing my own comments on them because both boost that visibility now, like on X, narc narcissism outwards, you don't see your own I don't care much for it, I saw it, but now all the leftist forces took off

54:06 from X, and where did they go, to Blue Sky, so there they are now shouting and looking at that fair algorithm and then steer into that, then well hopefully in Yle and Hesari they'll still write about our stuff for a long time people still read it, but they lost their audience completely when they went there and that's a pity by the way if it goes like this where different political camps are on different platforms, the whole discourse is already there, well it's sort of well it but it's like BRAIN D-, then that kind of bubble is like the algorithm's like

54:34 condensation, like a bubble's bubble, well but who is the culprit, the one who leaves away from there, meaning the Left, only they continue, stay, so like really stupid thinking from the left, I do understand both sides somehow here, I mean I realize, for example the Greens, they leave X as an official party, I totally agree with that, like man what a shame if the net goes into this now that that everyone gets hunkered down on X, even though it's a dirty place, it's a bit

54:59 like the Wild West too, that's why I kind of like it, but it's great because it's specifically a bubble breaker, not a bubble maker in my opinion, exactly so and then this thing which, which when you've had to think about these and I myself had to apologize for one post too because I was I was really, really arrogant in the evening after the gym, like my trigger threshold went and and and and then blurted something and showed moral superiority there

55:29 myself there like I demonstrated, so one thing that comes to mind there is that also like opposing thoughts must be allowed to be heard because if they aren't, if like like you used the example yourself about canceling, it creates like frustration and and and at worst hate and at worst aggression, at worst violence, and and that's why we have to

55:55 get to like let out those thoughts, even negative thoughts and then social pressure in a certain way, then that that like modulates and then a bit tone down the matter but the word 'get to' carries in my opinion a really big load there or I mean what the word 'get to' somehow implies because I mean the Greens are allowed or would have been allowed to stay well, they can go to X and say whatever but they are totally... they are totally on the back foot

56:24 there, it's full of right-wingers, it would probably be worth telling things that resonate with people, it's no more complicated than that. um, so was it, was it, was it five years ago, were they on the back foot or the front foot, um, on X or Twitter, uh probably more of a tie now. No, did they have more of an upper hand, and now then like, like, already so, and and on the other hand, now that they've left from there, then of course things start to circulate on X, uh

56:53 like, perceptions, narratives about the Greens that have been built there, and you don't have like very many guys who would be there somehow correcting them from the other side, but on the other hand, if they had stayed there, then everyone's point of contact with the Greens' tweets would have been that they would have tweeted something, either stupid or sensible, it doesn't matter, and then it doesn't matter whether it's stupid or sensible, because in the comments it would have just been shouting

57:21 shouting, shouting. That probably doesn't look very good either, what they write on the blog, but maybe Ville had a good point there that no one really knows what Bill Gates thinks nowadays, so I've been a long-time Microsoft shareholder, benefited a lot from this, in a way, from this forgotten Tech bro, an old uncle, and well, now one of Trump's executive orders was to restore TikTok and give more time for control to move to America, so I've long been betting with my own

57:49 money that Microsoft gets to buy TikTok. So, people, start making a noise there on LinkedIn like I do, and because this is how it's happening. No, there, I'm pretty much alone getting those million views. No, but I mean that Microsoft is... it was made public a couple of days ago that Microsoft would be buying TikTok, so it hadn't happened yet but it's been my thesis for years, or like a year, but but

58:15 well, then a very strong platform will be created, I mean Microsoft's LinkedIn, where you say things with your professional profile there's that kind of your professional, like, true identity, and there you notice, by the way, I at least don't really have in that there is a bit of color, like you're still afraid of being canceled there because you haven't woken up to it even there anymore, you can't be canceled. It is, by the way the ultimate rite of awakening and liberation when people realize that

58:42 even on LinkedIn you can't be canceled, like what does your organization think of that opinion of yours? But then when it's combined with TikTok, it becomes a pretty powerful platform then, and for someone like the Forgotten Man, Bill Gates.

58:57 Yeah, and but rather give it to someone else than Zuckerberg, so we don't get a monopoly with one having like three of those biggest social medias, or four.

59:07 Musk is also maybe a bit... maybe I don't want to see Twitter... I mean, TikTok On the left-right issue, well, a study just came out that, that, that...

59:17 more conservative people are, well, less intellectually capable, cognitively capable, and here we have the left-wing conservatives.

59:28 Especially here, there’s a certain, certain, certain, like, like, like thread that...

59:35 that surely, like, such left-wing thinking—and I mean, I count myself more towards right-wing thinking—well, it surely is quite complex, you have to take into account, like, different kinds of, like, human relationships and who is in a weaker position and how abstract, like, societal structures work, and then on the right, there are maybe, maybe then a bit simpler values, like—I don't know, I mean, I think...

60:02 'left-wing conservative' is a word that should be introduced into use, and it's specifically someone who reads from there, uh, that structures explain everything, and in a way, a person isn't responsible for anything, and Marx already said something like that, and from that Foucault theory, I learned like three sentences and I just repeat them because I'm, like, a good person there.

60:23 So I think that's specifically, intellectually, really weak and the left-wing conservative tries to hold onto this already broken structure tooth and nail, but isn't it also somehow—I agree, I mean, this kind of 'everything is somehow the system's fault,' this is maybe a bit of a naive view, but isn't also the idea that everything depends on the individual's mindset, and isn't that also a bit... No, it's quite simple, it doesn't...

60:48 everything is about that, but everything depends on resources, you can't just take all the resources from others. I mean, you can't live like a parasite or whatever they'd say about this, so here, this 'slave parasite'—I'm not a left-wing conservative, left-...

61:01 slave. I dare, I dare to admit that, that I've started, as I've started to reflect on it, I've started to understand more and more the logic and emotional logic that the left has, and they have many things that are very, very like, correct, and in this, like, in our conversation, what comes up is what we forget—we want... The brain is a categorization tool, it says, 'Is this a cat or a dog? If it's a dog, what kind of dog is this?' So it makes

61:28 all the time these, like, like, like mutually exclusive choices, simple choices, and, and, and, well, we, we have, like, a need, a need to think that, like, this is bad and this is wrong, and this is, this is like right and this is, like, good, and the in-between feels uncomfortable for us, so...

61:46 and then when we start looking with a magnifying glass at any conversation, nuances emerge, which again requires processing power from our brains, and we know that it's, it's limited, and so then we make some of those direct, direct decisions, so then, then like...

62:00 in a way, but here as well, we, like, discuss, since we've now discussed so much about this current situation we're in now, and, but, but then, that, that, that...

62:07 that we should should maybe look further at the horizon what what in the future what in five years how where is the world changing like in a bigger sense when there's a lot of noise in this our lives Trump comes and goes and governments change and the world changes so in what way do we adapt and now I'm returning to what you said that well we certainly have lost in many senses those kind of basic needs of ours

62:34 and you're saying that in the US money money replaces certain things so yeah towards a certain simpler life it's inevitable in some way even if it's a leftist idea that we somehow move towards recycling nature conservation then the optimization of resources in a way that every person doesn't consume huge amounts of natural resources I don't even know if it's just a leftist idea I read it's also a very conservative idea

63:01 in some circles like that mod- yeah exactly or even maybe but the idea that you know some farmer in the early 1900s who had maybe a little money was still a more whole human being because he had stronger values he was more rooted more rooted traditional yeah but that's probably it you and I haven't made with these hands those own- yeah I'm like this I'm a bit of a

63:28 modern rootless liberal even though I still appreciate my country appreciate my family I have a lot of this that many would probably consider quite traditional values even though my worldview otherwise is quite liberal and international and blah blah blah like this but I think that's also partly I'm putting my hands up I admit that's probably because it's possible I can still feel safe uh and somehow express myself while I believe in these so

63:55 you can easily lean on yeah I can easily exactly you have money you have education you have social networks you have health you have open like various opportunities and then you have enough challenges and also enough things that bring pleasure you rest and sleep well eat well take care of yourself you are like the world's elite yeah and actually I quoted earlier when I talked about this Patrick I think he is

64:23 like a right-leaning political political scientist what was it political scientist who wrote this book and and quoted this statistic about how religion and family and their importance has decreased in society and the appreciation of money has increased so even though I quoted him I agree I mean there's something indisputable in it that it affects us and it affects a certain kind of rootlessness

64:52 feeling and that's probably why this is discussed truly leftist this maybe there's a good connection to that, I'm going maybe a bit into this kind of psychoanalyzing but if we talk about power-building and right-wingness, it's not just politics, it's also in some way a lifestyle thing and like a life philosophy thing and I feel that this was in Ezra Klein's podcast I think it was well categorized, that in right-wing, right-wing youth especially usually think about the world and themselves through self-improvement

65:21 through empowerment, like self-discipline this kind of individualistic mindset, I'm the master of my own life I can do things, I can change my own life, which is really empowering and probably a pretty useful mindset, I have to add here I just finished reading the power-building one quickly, yeah because this is interesting, about self-discipline remind me again, yeah I'll remind you and then the left is more of this therapeutic absolving mindset, meaning there's something that needs to be

65:51 gotten rid of, this like natural human state is somehow sinful and you become a good person if you somehow rise above it and condemn those who—about self-discipline, I read this article that referred to scientific research and I glanced through that scientific study as well, so it said there that for a child

66:16 self-discipline predicts far into adulthood very strongly regardless of socioeconomic background, certain positive things and on the other hand it prevents those negative things and this relates to this. And now we come to that rootlessness, just briefly about how it's maybe not money, but our lifestyle has changed, money is after all

66:45 an abstraction, so how our life has changed, it has become easier, and they don't have to ski 12 km with a lantern like me with wolves howling there in Kainuu to go to school to learn and learn the alphabet from a pointer stick so our life has become easier in that way, we move less, we eat processed junk food, I tell my son when he eats treats that these are poisons and then and then

67:14 he also says they're poisons but he still eats them, so our life has changed and through that our glue, so to speak, has decreased, family and togetherness and such take time phones take time, IT takes time, work takes time, hobbies take time, so it's like that and it changes our thinking, maybe not directly the money, of course money is the tool for what happens, but that our

67:40 well-being has turned into our ill-being as well, good maybe... well And to finish off, here at the media table we have Isak Rautia, Leevi Leivo and then over here at the slightly older guys' table, Ali Omar and Sami Miettinen. So, to wrap this up, pick one of these Tech Bros and tell an interesting fact about them, why one might want to chat with them. I'll start with Jeff Bezos. So, he is

68:09 the founder of Amazon and he has a really interesting way of working with boards; he writes these really long, well-thought-out memos, and then they are actually read and discussed. I think this is quite unique; he basically takes on a lot of cognitive load to understand things, because when I sit on boards, it feels like people are looking for that Siilasmaa-style good spirit and discussion, but there should be more of this

68:36 intense memo style, where problems are understood and solutions are sought.

68:43 What about the other Tech Bros? Well, I have Elon Musk. I'm interested... you took the easy one. No, it's an easy one.

68:51 I'll play the 'socks' card here at the end. In my estimation, Musk's personality has changed, and he is currently living in a state of hubris. In this kind of omnipotence, hubris, and well, it seems he has admitted to having depression. Well, I'm not surprised at all, if he plays computer games, leads

69:16 many companies, and is now involved in politics too, and he has—is it 11 children?—and he's having more. He has said that when he's with the kids, he does emails on his phone, that it's easy to multitask. And now he has lied about, among other things, being ranked number one in Diablo and then Path of Exile

69:41 2, and then he also has this kind of cognitive dissonance, a tension from—was it his daughter who transitioned into a man, or was it the other way around? Yeah, son became a woman, yes, and he says he uses ketamine. Then he uses like Adderall, an ADHD medication, and then he uses cannabis and apparently microdosing LSD—all sorts of things—and

70:08 when you look at how he travels in a private jet all over the place in a single year, you can only imagine how much load this person is carrying. You can't rest there, in that business jet where he spends his time, and his speech is becoming slower and more slurred, and he's not sharp. Of course, he's an introvert and a bit autistic in this way, and it's clear that with this bromance between the two,

70:36 we know what's going to happen—one is like a Renaissance genius and the other is cognitively already The best I've seen, well, a person who isn't interested in, like, National Security and to whom you have to, like, explain the facts in bullet points and tell them why the US wins or the US is a loser if we do this or that, so it's quite simple and they have a narcissistic personality. Can

71:03 a narcissistic personality appreciate this kind of rock star, like the world's richest man? Can a genius like this appreciate someone like this other one, or not another one, but a narcissist? I don't believe he's a narcissist, but in terms of hubris, that well, and and and now we see how this bromance will eventually, like, change. I can't decide, so I'll say three.

71:28 Oops, but you have to leave Leevi something now... these are a bit vague.

71:32 Okay, you take that time if you only have one, then I'll say these quickly. Okay, well I'll throw in... Now I'll take this from outside the US scene because I want to bring Europe forward, so Daniel Ek, the Spotify founder, and well, this is a bit like making shelf meters of Putin literature, in that I don't really know this person, though I've read the book, the book and so on, but regardless of how terribly high taxation is here in Europe, even from here in Sweden, a company

72:01 the size of Spotify can still emerge, which by the way once beat Steve Jobs and Apple Music in this competition, which has been considered, well, Jobs has been seen by many as a very mythical, invincible figure, and well, I recommend it, there's a good book, 'How Spotify was built,' I recommend that.

72:19 And like, even from here in Europe, like these... is it already almost 100 billion in value or even more? Yeah, and Sweden is, well, out of all, the closest country to Silicon Valley in Europe. They have, well, low taxes, there's no inheritance tax, or it's a capital gains tax... there's no gift tax, well, tax rates are several percentage points below Finland, and in a way, it also feels like Stockholm is like a real metropolis, so in a certain way I would argue that it's Sweden's, well, like

72:49 Americanness, this success. Yeah, I'll go back to the US.

72:53 Earth... wait, a joke for all the viewers, I would gladly talk more about Europe, it's a bit humiliating. Yeah, let's talk... it's good to find something to be proud of from the US, but I have been thinking a bit about what it says about Trump and his campaign this year.

73:12 Who's close to him, who isn't anymore... somehow Marc Andreessen, who's been in the media a lot lately, has been very, very, very visible, truly visible figures. I mean, probably one of the best of these, like, the tech-right, sitting alongside MAGA, the tech-right's intellectuals, the best articulator, in my opinion, and is also very open to going... actually just had a good interview on the New York Times podcast.

73:40 avoin menemään oli itseas just New York Timesinkin podcastissa hyvä haastattelu so he goes and puts himself out there, a good way to put it, his views, and then it maybe told something, Marc is very, very, very techno-optimistic, but then one of the people we've been talking about today in this episode has been completely silent during this campaign, Peter Thiel. He has been completely absent, and he was never really very visible. Well, he was— specifically, I said so during Trump's first term. He, as a gay man, went to

74:10 defend Trump back then, when it cost him really a lot. A certain columnist—I don't remember which magazine they were from— I listened to an interview with someone who knows Thiel, who says he didn't want to play in that league, the founder of Y Combinator, and he founded PayPal with Elon Musk.

74:26 building, but he's... he gossiped a bit that this Thiel had changed to be more like a 'doomer,' that he no longer believes that America can be saved, that whether it's the debt or whatever else is going on in that scene, there's starting to be a bit of this spirit, and if you want to jump into the deep end—and again, I'm not, I'm not in Silicon Valley, so I don't know exactly how big

74:54 an influence this guy has, but a name like Curtis Yarvin. Have you heard of him?

74:59 Okay, look him up—Curtis with a C and then Yarvin with a Y. He is considered, maybe in a similar way to how Dugin was talked about a couple of years ago, he's like Putin's inner circle's court intellectual, so Curtis Yarvin is seen in much the same way for this Silicon Valley, basically as an ideological forefather.

75:22 I don't know in practice how big of an impact he's had, but word is it has been said at least that Curtis Yarvin is a very, big, very big influence, and this Yarvin's philosophy and politics include the idea that democracy doesn't work. This is like, a scam, and America should become like a firm—he uses the word formalist—a kind of monarchy; basically, America needs a king,

75:49 this kind of technocratic king, and it's interesting to read this guy's views on what the modern age is like and in what direction the world is going, because I think if you find the right person from whom many influential people get their ideas, then they will eventually surface, and reality will start testing these in a completely different way once they become more relevant, so through that

76:16 it also becomes more okay to say out loud. A brief comment on that pessimism: of course that pessimism starts to emerge because China, China is starting to be almost, almost like—not quite equal, but approaching parity in terms of trade, economy, the size of the economy, and then in terms of this dynamic, and also military buildup, and between these, of course conflict is quite inevitable—indirectly, of course, nothing more.

76:43 But, but if these kinds of pessimistic echoes emerge, then it comes from the fact that the U.S. dominant position, which has lasted for a long time and it has been completely... since the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet Union, completely alone, meaning it wasn't multipolar but has been fully unipolar, and now it's in a way, like, under threat. And now the focus has, since Obama's time, shifted there to, well, to Asia, to Asia, so it's no wonder there are these pessimistic thoughts. But indeed,

77:10 otherwise the U.S. is, like, the world's most powerful, most dynamic nation. I'll end it here. So, as Trump said, 'This Is The Golden Age,' and well, he's just been reading too many of Palantir's, uh, secret reports there, so, uh, we are indeed going to see unprecedented American hegemony, and we'll just be here watching the sparkle coming from that palace. Thank you for the visit, and we suggest we head over to the Insider side, and I'll throw out this, uh,

77:38 impromptu topic, so that quote about power at the start was from my negotiation mandate, whose subtitle is 'you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.' So I suggest we talk for a few more moments about this idea, as it is, in a certain way, a quite, quite, like, tough idea. Thank you.